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Its getting worse... (Mod paywalls)



  • Why not simply move all paying mods into a category apart with all kind of paying mods melted whatever their kind ? in this way it highlight them a bit less and will maybe discouraged people to make their mod payable ?



  • @wemod that's always seemed reasonable to me, especially when it's early access to something that isn't entirely complete yet and needs some more work, so you wouldn't be ready to release it to everybody anyhow. That's the approach I'm taking with my current WIP project.



  • @wemod said in Its getting worse... (Mod paywalls):

    What's everyone opinion of Authors giving their donors beta or early access to their mods?

    I'd say that depends on what the expectations are of the donors. If they are simply getting unconditional early access, then I don't see it as a problem. If they are expected to be Beta testers, that's where I personally see a problem.

    They are donating (to the author) as compensation for the mod author's time. So if they are using their time to provide a service for the mod author, they should be equally compensated for that. Beta testing isn't a privilege, it's a responsibility... and with that responsibility should come reward.



  • @LeeC2202 But beta testers generally are people like youtubers and they releases gameplays with the beta of the mod and obviously, they get visitors days before of the public release and that is good when is a script mod well done and almost complete. A script needs to be stable and the testing helps and both parts wins.
    Contrary thing is when the beta of the mod are models (peds/maps/vehicles, etc), in that case not exist logic in be a tester, because the model issues are part of the modder's knowledge/skills and the people can see weird facts in a model but the majority of players tolerates with pleasure the imperfection.



  • @Rarefacer But that depends on whether the mod author allows them to release gameplay videos of the mod. As a script modder, I would not be happy if people were releasing gameplay videos of a mod still in Beta, the only person who should be releasing videos at that stage is the mod author, so they can control what gets shown. The last thing you want is someone posting videos of bugs, especially when those videos are potentially earning them money on YouTube.

    As for models, being a tester applies just the same. A model is generally constructed exclusively in the modelling package and no matter how well you build and rig it, there can be instances in the game where problems can arise. That's what testers are for, they spend the time getting into situations where they think problems might happen.

    In the case of Peds, it could be getting into a certain vehicle, holding a certain weapon, sitting in a chair etc... . For vehicles it could be opening doors, parking on uneven surfaces, driving over certain terrain etc... Or it could be testing rigging consistency, texturing issues, mipmap stability... there are a whole range of things that can be tested in a model in-game, that you can't test in 3DS Max or ZModeler. You only have to look at how many models are released with errors in them, to realise how important testing models can be.

    Beta testers aren't there to tolerate imperfections, they are there to report them so the modder can fix them. That's why I say it's a responsibility, because it is important... very important.



  • @LeeC2202 Models continues being plenty responsabilty of the modder, if something goes wrong is by not enought knowledge, skills and testing in game by the proper modder learning every related to the native models, because models don't change and in the way are working for my game, in the same way will to work in the final user game. With the scripting exists another variables like Pc specifications, Framework libraries used, deprecated native functions, users knowledge about their PCs, game updates, etc, things out of the modder hands.



  • @Rarefacer said in Its getting worse... (Mod paywalls):

    because models don't change and in the way are working for my game, in the same way will to work in the final user game

    That's simply not true.

    What if the modder creates their model on a high-spec PC and then someone with a low-spec PC tries to use it? What if the textures they use are too much for someone else's PC? Models/textures can suffer in the same way as scripts can, if the user's PC is not up to running that model. This is especially true of those models that don't have correct LODs, or have textures that are much bigger than they need to be, or have insufficient mipmaps.

    A model is not a one-size-fits-all asset, not by a long way. I've been making game models since the early 1990's and the same problems exist now, as they did back then. Actually, there are probably more problems now than there used to be. I used to make Mech robots with something like a 200 polygon limit and no texture maps, just flat colour.



  • @LeeC2202 Well, we are old guys in the modding and 3D scene, I not so much like you but almost. I understood your point, the final user has a PC and maybe not be a Mid-End as least, for that reasson is so important the learning with our game. If we see the native models, the textures are not bigger than 1024x1024 pixels and geometries not bigger than 25000 polygons (like the majority of vehicles with some exceptions like cargoplane_hi with 175000 and is detailed because appears in cut escenes), but, Why we are using 4k textures and models with 200k or more? If the game uses limits is because are really important for the gameplay experience for the end users.

    The modder has the knowledge and duty to offer things near to the used by the game, is that the way to make the day of everybody playing with our mods, and not read sadly comments like "*I can't play the game with this vehicle mod, my game is so slow and laggy :( *"

    That is my point: For models the modder can learn and test everything without send the mod out of his home and need to be conscient of the final user, even if has a NASA's computer or a toaster with screen and mouse, the fun is the objective and Rockstar optimized the game to the extreme to offer the best of itself.



  • @Rarefacer said in Its getting worse... (Mod paywalls):

    The modder has the knowledge and duty to offer things near to the used by the game

    That is the important line and to give you what I believe is a measure of the true scale of the problem, I downloaded a model recently and it had textures for a screw head. There was a 512x512 diffuse map and a 512x512 normal map... for a screw head. :astonished: The livery for the car body was only 2048x2048.

    But this is my point about testers... if I was a tester for that model, I would be constantly saying to the modder "These textures are too big, these textures are way too big... these textures are ridiculously too big." :D

    See I'm actually fairly new to the modding scene but I've been a game developer since 1985. I'm used to seeing things created properly, tested properly and the end users not being cast aside by people who aren't really that bothered... unless it's those buying games by EA that is. ;)

    I'm used to testers who say "If you take this model and you stand in this part of the map, using this weapon and do this action... bad things happen". That's the level of testing I have grown up with, that's all I understand. And as my role as a tester, that's the attention to detail I expect from myself.

    I probably sound like a broken record... I know I sound like a broken record but I can't change my nature... the worst part is the fact that no matter how much we complain, nothing will change... so on that note, I should probably shut up and get back to coding. :D



  • @LeeC2202 We need a School of Modding sensei !
    (Maybe, can be a section in the forums).


  • MODERATOR

    @LeeC2202 said in Its getting worse... (Mod paywalls):

    and get back to coding.

    Now, there's a thought ;)

    Whilst you're out there on the menu thingie I've got a request on something you could actually implement it on... Interested?



  • @ReNNie Well I can only code in between testing, cos man... these testers just don't perform like they should. :P

    If you have any suggestions/requests for the menu system I'm working on, ask away on the WIP thread... any and all suggestions are more than welcome. :D



  • To be honest, donations are understandable. I mean a Zmodeler license isn't cheap for some people, and yeah, people put time into their work, and I totally understand the people who have a problem with paywalls, but the thing is, these people are just trying to make a living, trying to put food on their table, much like homeless people when they go "Spare some change?". I know what most of them probably spend that money on, yeah, but some homeless people just want to have a roof over their heads with food on their table, much like these 'support via patreon modders.

    And hell, what if it was the only way people truly could live? Robots are gonna take our jobs, we'll all be out of a job, so at some point, there's going to be support via donation modders anyway, because at that point, it's the quickest way to make any kind of money (at least maybe it would be then, because who the fuck wants to spend thousands of dollars for a business you can't even afford?) I would assume that when robots take our jobs, most gamers who intend to make money will likely go either to game development, support-donation mod development, or make gaming videos.

    That's just my 2 cents on the situation.



  • Just here to post recent developments in another game, The Sims 4.

    "The Sims team doesn’t pre-screen, endorse or specifically support any particular Mod. You should use Mods with caution and understand there may be risk.
    
    We have a long tradition of supporting creativity in our community.  We do not object to Mod developers continuing to share their amazing content, subject to the following:
    
    Do not promote your Mods in a way that suggests they are endorsed by or affiliated with The Sims, Maxis, or Electronic Arts. This means you cannot use any game logos or trademarks, including versions of the plumbob, or key art designs to promote your Mods. You may state that your Mods are for The Sims 4 and/or for a specific game expansion pack.
    
    Mods must be non-commercial and distributed free-of-charge. Mods cannot be sold, licensed, or rented for a fee, nor can Mods contain features that would support monetary transactions of any type. However, Maxis recognizes that creating Mods takes time and resources. Accordingly, Mod developers may recoup their development costs via passive advertisements and donations as long as:
      
    Passive advertisements and requests for donations must be limited to the Mod website or distribution site, and not appear within the Mod itself.
        All users must be able to access the Mods in full for free regardless of whether they donate."
    

    You buy GTA, then you spend fucking $1000+ on mods per year if not more just because some of the only people to create good mods lock them behind a perma-paywall and the only way they are made free is when the creator gets wind that the mod is being leaked to shit. If making mods if your living you need a job, or a promotion. You reserve the right to those things, as well as paywalling mods because Rockstar doesnt crack down on mods unless its harmful to their bullshit (refer to Defective Edition Trilogy ie Liberty City mod, San Andreas mod). This isnt even a matter of legality at this point its just pure capitalism and a matter of ethics. Don't speak to me of how much work it takes to make these mods because I am a developer of many mods including cars. It isn't hard. Don't speak to me of spending money on buying assets for your mod that is your decision and no fault of the person who wants the mod.

    I am on board with OP about this whole thing getting grossly out of hand. What, with Razed doxxing people and potentially suing them over some fucking mod? Can you imagine if the gta community reflected the Sims community? People will donate to you if theyre not dicks, but honestly I think the good people in this community is a dime a fucking dozen. Ive spent years scrutinizing this whole shitstorm of a community.

    Making a living has to do with your ability to go out, get your resume, walk into a business and try to make fucking use of yourself. Again, donations are fine, early access is fine, perma-paywall is just out of the question (when I refer to early access I mean those devs who paywall for 1 to 2 weeks then release for free).

    At the end of the day.... it is all up to Rockstar to do something or else this community is just going to shit more so than it already is....



  • @FinnedOcean9389 said in Its getting worse... (Mod paywalls):

    it is all up to Rockstar to do something or else this community is just going to shit

    Rockstar has no obligation, legal, ethical, or moral, to stop whores from selling mods.

    Sadly, however, they've turned their backs on the entire modding community. Part of the reason is likely that the average modder consistently breaks his game and then whines it's Rockstar's fault but the primary reason is that the money is in GTAO.

    So modding causes customers to shit all over Rockstar on forums and doesn't generate any revenue from SP or private MP/RP servers. Why bother support an old game and why try to police the whore developers?

    Honestly, you think having to pay for mods is Rockstar's problem?
    And you think the tens of thousands of users who pirate a $10 game shell out $1000 per year on mods?

    The only people who spend real cash on mods are the legitimate MP servers who charge you to play. Everything else is just leaks or small purchases.

    My time is valuable and i try to help out here, like others, but i do it freely.

    As for GTA6, all the whiners and haters will still play it, or maybe not since it will be woke sanitized to the point where everything, every element of the game that isn't politically correct has been removed. Minority female gay protagonist, no swearing, no guns, no violence, just god loving law abiding citizens with legitimate jobs.



  • @JohnFromGWN said in Its getting worse... (Mod paywalls):

    Rockstar has no obligation, legal, ethical, or moral, to stop whores from selling mods.

    Sadly that is the case and its their whole attitude to their community. what i meant in my manifesto is that it's up to Rockstar if they finally dredge up some money to buy a local fck to do something about their deteriorating community and sub-communities. About the modders breaking their game tehn bitching about how Rockstar makes a shit game, yes, they are also to blame for Rockstar's indifference to the community's outrage (and my own outrage to the idiots' outrage....seriously it only takes a couple hours that they spend gaming to learn how to do shit for themself)

    About Piracy, I know this website and their mods lose a couple screws when they hear piracy but I find it incredibly based. If I'm not spending 10 dollars on a game why would I spend 10 dollars on an asset for said game, an absurd proposition.
    I 100% agree with you on doing what you do for free when you can. It's the dime a dozen creators who still put out good quality free mods and it's not just a reskin of some old mod or the 1 millionth Nissan GTR.

    As for GTA6, all the whiners and haters will still play it, or maybe not since it will be woke sanitized to the point where everything, every element of the game that isn't politically correct has been removed. Minority female gay protagonist, no swearing, no guns, no violence, just god loving law abiding citizens with legitimate jobs.

    LOL I don't blame you for that, but I think Rockstar will at least stick to their track record of putting out today's idea of culturally insensitive material or it will reflect the world we live in today with all the "woke moralists" and pretentious naysayers around.


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